Tiling Bathroom

Hello I will try to keep this short, but have some questions that I would really appreciate opinions with. I am a first time DIY guy on a project this big.

Oh, the tile was in great shape - no cracks and no leaks, but my wife, being a woman, wanted a "newer looking bathroom" (the walls were definitely tiled with 1950's pink tile and the floor for some reason was a light gray) and our wallet said do it yourself, so that is why we are doing this. I am enjoying learning and knew that it would not be easy, but I have drywalled a few rooms before and am not afraid to get dirty, do grunt work and move slowly but effectively.

I totally gutted our first floor bathroom (it is small 5 x 9 feet and was built about 1950. The walls had 2 inches of concrete with chicken type wiring and then tile on top of them. It was tough to get rid of. The floor had about a 1 inch layer of mud and then the wire.

Under the floor is 1 inch wood cut into 14 inch by 7 inch rectangles placed between the floor joists. I have taken up all of the floor mud, wire, tile, etc, and taken everything off of the walls as well.

Now I am excited and nervous about the next step and have questions.

1. From all I have read I should put backerboard in the shower area and on the floor, but a few people have told me to just put the green board on the floor? Do you agree.

2. On the floor and in the shower area should I put roofing paper or another water barrier down before I attach the backerboard to the walls and the thinset and backerboard to the floor? Or should I do it without the paper/water barrier?

3. The wood in the floor looks to be in good shape, but it is definitely uneven in places (nothing huge, but an 1/8 inch drop here or there). The mud was able to hide these imperfections. If I just put the thinset and the backerboard to the floor will the imperfections be hidden or will the floor look 'wavy" when I finish tiling, or can I take care of the problem with mud when I do the tiling.

4. I plan on tiling all around the room to about 5 feet high and then about 6 feet high in the shower. In the part of the room that is not in the shower and not behind the sink do I need to still use backerboard here or will greenboard be ok? How about the places that will not have any tiling at all (the wall above the 4 foot leve) and should not get wet - can I get by with regular drywall or stick to greenboard or backerboard in this area?

5. After I have all the backboard up in the shower and on the floor and the rest of the wall space covered with greenboard should I tile the floor first of the walls first?

6. The flooring my wife bought is mosiac tyle with basketweave layout. Anything special I need to know about this? It looks like I do not want to use spacers with the basketweave. Is this right.

7. The bottom of the basketweave floor tile (sizes (12.5) x (12.5)) has a back I can't find reference to anywhere. The back has sort of a gridlike pattern and is not solid, it is more mesh like and very soft. Do I just lay it in the thinset like "regular" tile. I have the feeling this type of tile is going to be very hard to cut as well. Any comments.

8. The wall tile is ceramic and quite large but pretty light. The size is 13 x 17. Since they are so large is there anything special I need to know about attaching to the thinset and backerboard. I am afraid their size might make them fall off relatively easy. But again this is the type my wife wanted. (since the bathroom is small the person in the store told her that bigger tiles have fewer lines so the walls won't look as cluttered and fewer lines makes the room seem bigger. Or so that is what they told her.

9. If I decide to "float and mud" the shower part of the room how hard is it to learn to do it. Or should I even try.

Oh well, I have gone on long enough. If you have time to address any part of this project it would be greatly appreciated!

Have a nice day.

John Ryan

1. From all I have read I should put backerboard in the shower area and on the floor, but a few people have told me to just put the green board on the floor? Do you agree.

Backerboard (nor greenboard) is never used in a shower on the floor. Cement backerboard is used on the walls but not greenboard. Greenboard is against building codes but that doesn't seem to bother some people.

2. On the floor and in the shower area should I put roofing paper or another water barrier down before I attach the backerboard to the walls and the thinset and backerboard to the floor? Or should I do it without the paper/water barrier?

There is more than one method. With the method you propose either roofing felt or 4-6mil poly can be used on the studs. If you choose not to use the moisture barrier then you must waterproof the front side of the wallboard. There is more than one way to do that also.

3. The wood in the floor looks to be in good shape, but it is definitely uneven in places (nothing huge, but an 1/8 inch drop here or there). The mud was able to hide these imperfections. If I just put the thinset and the backerboard to the floor will the imperfections be hidden or will the floor look 'wavy" when I finish tiling, or can I take care of the problem with mud when I do the tiling

The backer board is not magic and it won't mystically fix anything. You need plywood before any backerboard goes in.

4. I plan on tiling all around the room to about 5 feet high and then about 6 feet high in the shower. In the part of the room that is not in the shower and not behind the sink do I need to still use backerboard here or will greenboard be ok? How about the places that will not have any tiling at all (the wall above the 4 foot leve) and should not get wet - can I get by with regular drywall or stick to greenboard or backerboard in this area?

Greenboard will work in all none-wet areas. Cement board is not needed for a tile wainscot.

5. After I have all the backboard up in the shower and on the floor and the rest of the wall space covered with greenboard should I tile the floor first of the walls first?

Matters not. But typically the wall tile would sit atop the floor tile.

6. The flooring my wife bought is mosiac tyle with basketweave layout. Anything special I need to know about this? It looks like I do not want to use spacers with the basketweave. Is this right.

Have no idea what tile you are talking about.

7. The bottom of the basketweave floor tile (sizes (12.5) x (12.5)) has a back I can't find reference to anywhere. The back has sort of a gridlike pattern and is not solid, it is more mesh like and very soft. Do I just lay it in the thinset like "regular" tile. I have the feeling this type of tile is going to be very hard to cut as well. Any comments.

OK now I'm catching up! That tile is a major PITA for a pro to say nothing of a novice. Maybe your wife would like to choose a different tile that is more installer-friendly.

8. The wall tile is ceramic and quite large but pretty light. The size is 13 x 17. Since they are so large is there anything special I need to know about attaching to the thinset and backerboard. I am afraid their size might make them fall off relatively easy. But again this is the type my wife wanted. (since the bathroom is small the person in the store told her that bigger tiles have fewer lines so the walls won't look as cluttered and fewer lines makes the room seem bigger. Or so that is what they told her.

Keeping in mind that most salws people in flooring stores are idiots move cautiously on buying what they are selling. Those tiles will be fine, stack them using spacers, not a big deal.

9. If I decide to "float and mud" the shower part of the room how hard is it to learn to do it. Or should I even try.

Forget it! There are much simpler and better result producing methods available these days.

Oh well, I have gone on long enough. If you have time to address any part of this project it would be greatly appreciated!

Yow, no kiddin'!

John let's back up some. You don't have a proper understanding of how to build a shower at this time and could use some more research.

The first place to go is to: http://www.schlutersystems.com

Take a look at their Shower Kits and at the KERDI Shower methods available. This will save you a lot of time and anger and frustration and will even save your marriage in the long haul.

Schluter offers more than one simple method of building a shower, we can help with your future questions but try to hold them down to sixty words or less each time.

Bud Cline -

Thanks for all of your input! I am sure you have alot of other things to do with your time so I really appreciate it.

When I said the shower area, I was meaning the area surrounding the tub. I am not planning on building a shower at all, but I appreciate the links.

I am now concerned about the floor tiling that my wife bought.

Any leads of how I can research how to do that type of tiling? I do have a friend coming over who has done about a dozen tile jobs over the past few years but I am not sure if he has done the type I mentioned with the basketweave floor tile with the soft mesh backing.
Again, I appreciate your time and I hope you have a nice evening.

Here are bathroom tile ideas for bathroom floor tile:

1 - If you use solid color ceramic bathroom floor tile in your bathroom, you can add tile borders of a different color to the tile floor, or you can create a border by alternating different colors. This kind of visual treatment can create a more interesting bathroom floor.

2 - When using the same color ceramic tile for the floors and walls, choose a different tile size for the walls or lay the wall tiles diagonally to create a more interesting visual effect.

Ideas from http://www.thetiledepot.co.uk/

John,
On the mosaic floor tile: One of the most important steps in tiling is to remove the excess thinset that squishes up into the grout spaces, so you can have room for the grout. With typical square tile this is not a problem, especially in a small area. I just use an old drill bit and pull it through the grout lines to clean trhem. But with the mosaic (unless it's squares, and you said it's a basket weave), you don't have continuous lines, just a maze of one inch lines. This becomes very tedious to scrape/wipe/scrape wipe up the excess grout. You maybe saying bad words by the time you are through!
The solution is to use a specialty product where the thinset becomes the grout, so you don't need to scape it up. I forget right now what it is, but it's pretty much a pro (not Home Depot) product. If you search this site for one of my old posts on this, you might find the thread. Good luck!

For the product description, do a search on "mosaic Roger" and you'll find the thread back in March 2005

The product is made by Laticrete International but the name escapes me also.

Bud and Roger and others,

Thanks for your comments and imput.

Roger, thanks for the heads up about the thinset coming through the little holes in the basketweave pattern. When I looked closely at the tiles I did notice the holes and figured that it would ooze up through the holes, but that it would also help to really hold the tiles quite firmly and solid. Luckily the flooring is only 5 foot by (6.5) feet so it isn't massive duty. But I imagine my knees and back will feel it!

I searched your old posts and below is what I came up with from 2005. The wording is from Henry Rothberg and it is in quotes below.

"Without turning this post into a "Laticrete Advertisment" I would point out that Laticrete 4237 latex thin set mortar admix mixed with any of our 40 different colors of sanded grout has been used for this technique by professional tile installers for over 40 years."

Roger and Bud, have either of you used this and did it work well?

I found a pic that is nearly what our tile is. http://www.tileshop.com/products /detail.aspx?record_id=9666

Each tile is about (12.5) inches by (12.5) inches.

If I read you correctly, I won't need to grout after I lay the tile. I guess this is partly because it is basketweave and there isn't really any lines between the tiles like traditional tiles?

Also, I was telling a guy at work about the project and he said that instead of putting plywood on the floor, he would put a layer of something - it skips my mind - but I think it was something like luellen, or lucent or something. He said put a 1/4 inch of that on the floor first, then the 1/4 inch of backerboard and then the thinset and then the tile. Sound right?

I am really getting excited about the project. The electrician is coming tomorrow to take care of making sure that all is fine with that and then on Monday a plumber friend of mine is coming to take care of a plumbing issue and then I hope to get the project started next Wednesday.

Oh, as I mentioned, the whole room is gutted, so I will be doing the ceiling, floors and walls. I plan on hanging the greenboard on the ceiling first, then the backerboard in the tub area next, then greenboard on the rest of the walls and then the backerboard to the floor. Then for tiling I plan on doing the floor first followed by the walls.

Again, I appreciate your comments and guidance.

I think I have spent more time reading books and watching videos about the project than I will probably actually spend on the project, but that is fine with me. I want to do it once and not have to revisit it!

One last thing. When I took down the walls there was no insulation at all anywhere. What do you recommend to put in for the outside wall (and yes, the shower is on this wall) and what do you recommend (if anything) on the other walls to keep the noise of the shower and toilet from being heard in the two surrounding rooms (both bedrooms and I don't want morning showers to wake people)

I know this is alot and if you are too busy to answer I understand.

Have a nice weekend!

Also, I was telling a guy at work about the project and he said that instead of putting plywood on the floor, he would put a layer of something - it skips my mind - but I think it was something like luellen, or lucent or something. He said put a 1/4 inch of that on the floor first, then the 1/4 inch of backerboard and then the thinset and then the tile. Sound right?

He is referring to Luaun (Luan). A low cost mahogany plywood material that was outlawed for use in tile installations many years ago. Luan is the absolute worst product you could use in a tile installation. In fact, if you will read the bags of the tile thinset mortars, every manufacturer warns against using it.

If I read you correctly, I won't need to grout after I lay the tile.

Well you can lay the tile and grout as you go or you can lay the tile clean up the surface of proud purges at that time and then go back and grout later. I have never used it but have heard good things about it. You should know that the Henty Rothberg that made that post is the son of the man that invented tile thinset mortar adhesive, Henry Rothberg Sr. By the way he (they) also invented Laticrete International.

Thanks for the waring about Luaun. I did research it on the internet and couldn't find anything good about it when used with tiling or flooring in general!

Also, thanks for letting me know that Hank Rothberg invented the thinset we discussed.

For the walls, since the tiles I am using are large - 13 X 17, do you recommend putting the thinset directly on the tile or on the wall? I read somewhere that for large tiles, especially for beginners it is better to go directly to the tile and then apply to the surface. Any opinion?

AQgreed.